The Nina Paley Show! Sunday, November 7, 2004

Hey Nina,

I saw your posting on the Sepia Mutiny News tab and read the Hindu Jagruti's complaint against your "Sitayana." Now, as a 25-year-old, half-Muslim, half-Hindu Indian lesbian, I'm certainly not a fan of the Hindu Jagruti's overall mission, nor do I support any form of Hindu fundamentalism (or any form of religious extremism). I'm also a firm believer in the First Amendment and free speech. I say all this so I'm not posited as some religious zealot.

That said, I don't know if I feel completely comfortable with a white American woman drawing pictures of a crazed-looking Kali with enlarged breasts, holding a penis. All commentary and subtext aside, my parents deeply worship Kali Ma, and would be very offended by such a picture. Do you have a right to do what you do without hate mail? Of course. But Hindus have a right to lobby back and argue that some of your work may be offensive, regardless of your progressive agenda and knowledge of Hinduism.

I don't have a chance to go through Hindu Jagruti's whole website, and they do seem somewhat extreme, but is it really "anti-speech" to disagree with something? When you called Mr. Nanivadekar's letter "threatening," I thought it was going to be some crazy, incoherent, "off with your head" letter. It was quite thought out, actually, and pretty articulate and coherent. His only "threat" was that they would mount a public protest against you, which they have an absolute right to do. He didn't threaten violence, nor did he call you any vulgar names. Of course, it is ridiculous to give in to his demands and shut down your site, but that's a pretty common demand when you disagree with something.

My larger point is that you seem to be a smart woman who is respectful of other cultures, and I would hate for you to go the way of many white liberals who get a taste of criticism from the "natives" and get very self-defensive and dismissive. You have to understand your positionality as a white, American woman whose work deals with a religion misunderstood by many people in the West. So I hope that you can at least attempt to understand critiques from South Asians, rather than dismissing them (again, not saying you do this). Unless your art is really just schtick meant to give other white people something "exotic" to look at, give dialogue a chance rather than being self-defensive and deeming something "extreme" just because it critiques your work (again, not saying you do this). In the same vein, I have been looking around your website and found many things I do like and appreciate. You do seem to have a good understanding of the Ramayana, although I am still uncomfortable with your Kali picture.

I'm sure many Sepia Mutiny people will disagree with me, but that's just my two cents.

Thanks--

Samira

Hi Nina

I read this post and your response. It is clear that you are determined to hurt Hindus as much as possible.

I could not find the image Samira has mentioned. But so-called, self claimed artist like you can understand feelings only when some one will draw your mother like and exhibit her painting in public.

You claim people are treatening you... You are the biggest treat to our sentiments...

Jay Sri Ram, Jay Maa Kali, Jay Sita Maia
Deshbhakta

this guy needs to back off, they should be HONORED that you make your own version of the story. so much time, effort, talent has been put in. as an artist you have the right to do what you are doing and though its not finished yet, it is beautiful so far. keep up the good work Nina and when its complete it'll be such a masterpiece. besides all this controversy is good because its drawing attention to your work.

Hey Nina

Put Jay's mother's picure in place of Maa Kali... You are an artist so Jay won't mind to see his mother's "pictures with enlarged breasts, holding a penis." as you done with Kali Maa pic. People would also appeciate that masterpeice...

Refer Samira's comment to know more about this picture

Hi Samira,

is it really "anti-speech" to disagree with something? Not at all. Nor is it anti-speech to protest something. But the goal of their site is to have any images they dislike removed from all media - that is anti-speech. I get criticism all the time that isn't anti-speech, in fact many critics make that clear. Respek.

Sorry you don't like the Kali picture. It's not actually supposed to be a picture of Kali; it's a picture of Desire, hence the title. But obviously it refers to Kali.

I'm not dismissive of all criticism, as you'll see if you read the comments. This letter in particular, however, is nuts for many reasons, NONE of which are that Hindus may, for obvious reasons, disagree with my interpretation of the Ramayana. I've received enough email from Hindus by now, both negative and positive, to know that "Hindu Jagruti" doesn't represent "Hindus" any more than the Islamic terroritsts Mrunal looks to as role models represent "Muslims."

His only "threat" was that they would mount a public protest against you

Mrunal alludes to the death threats made against European cartoonists, and adds "You are well aware that had you used an Islamic Holy Scripture for retelling on the lines of personal incidents, you would have violent agitations on your hands by now. Is this to incite the usually tolerant Hindus to take up violence to protect their religious sanctity?"

So I hope that you can at least attempt to understand critiques from South Asians, rather than dismissing them (again, not saying you do this). Unless your art is really just schtick meant to give other white people something "exotic" to look at, give dialogue a chance rather than being self-defensive and deeming something "extreme" just because it critiques your work (again, not saying you do this).

I'm sure glad you're not saying I do this.

Apparently the best defense is a good offense. Among its successful campaigns the HJS site lists its exposure of Ghandi as a hypocrite, and its exposure of the Christian Bible as a collection of mistakes, lies and hate speech.

So my response would be:

Dear Mrunal Nanivadekar,

It appears that you are not fully aware that the Bible is a Holy Scripture for Christians... Thus, even if inadvertently, HJS's "Truths of Christianity" has proved to be deliberately disrespectful and downright denigrating to Christians at large.

Expecting you to get a life,

but not any time soon.

Sorry, the more I read about you and your work, you just seem like another clueless white liberal leeching off other cultures to appear interesting and unique. I love how people like you go to other countries, deem certain things "misogynst" without understanding them, all the while trying to adapt them to your narrow American lenses...so cliche.

And Jay...who is this "they" that should be honored by this bs art? I'm sorry, but this is just the same old exotica schtick that dates from colonial times...except in this case, our religious forms have to suffer because some white lady got dumped and had an "awakening." Wow - very intelligent. Have fun keeping the Hare Krishnas entertained.

Namaste Nina!

I do not know what the fuss is. I am married to a Hindu, my in-laws are brahmin, and when I showed my mamiyar (mother-in-law) your site, and showed it to them, they were singing your praises about your art and your creativity, and were happy that someone (regardless of race or religion) was making the Ramayana accessible to people who may have never heard of the story.

And being a woman, regardless of race or religion, I think every woman can relate to Sita, Mother Earth, and even Kali-ma, as each of these have elements within each woman.

Me, and my family saw nothing disrespectful about your work. People should view things with a bit more understanding, and take from it what they find useful or inspiring, and disregard the rest.

But not matter how well our intentions, no matter how much we relate to the subject matter, no matter how sincere we are, I dare say we will always be outsiders to some who cannot look beyond the physical. Inside our Creator made us all the same.

God bless and keep up your great and inspiring work.

Respectfully,

Regarding "penis"...

What, exactly, do people think a "Shiva lingam" is?

I still don't see what the hang up is.

this was a pathetic way to gain publicity Nina paley, America's best love unknown cartoonist, my foot. You are such a loser. You derive humour by degrading something religious, you are trully a loser.

=v= The semi-nude Durga doll with a tiger reminds me, semi-inexplicably, of Calvin & Hobbes. Am I a bad person? Or just operating within a limited human paradigm?

Looks like he objects to having the "divine Om" on shoes. He'd probably have a coronary if he ever went to Marin County, where it's printed on just about anything.

YOU ROTTEN NINA!!!
Another completly jealous and mentally disturbed western like Nina paley :)The only cause for such denegrating paintings made by you on hindu deities is definatly sickness and infected western culture of Bible.Well no strange your rotten egged mind comes up with pictures which you wish to seem ur self in it-f***ink ur self. Well take some time unless time eats you. Enough of nice talks with u- it is of no use for mentally disturbed person like u cause ur not in ur proper state !! GET WELL SOON DEAR !

Nina,

Shame on you!!! How you dare to show such holy personality in such a shameful manner....why didn't you make a same animations film on muslim GOD or christen GOD...and then see, how they react. This is the worst thing I saw until now. I couldn't see it after sometime. You are playing with Hindu's beliefs. You should stop all this things immediately.

Pallavi

II SHREE II
Dearest Nina, .
sorry i cant make 'dearest' word dirty by adding before ur sick name. I am really sorry for your mental disturbed condition and pray for still more distortion of your mind so that u star making fun of muslims and christian too. We hindus hav had enough of you idiots and now its your time to get kicked hard. Beware and get checkup of your shit mind.

|| ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय ||

Nina,

Following the Vedic Dharma, Hindus donot attack anyone's faith nor do they malign anyone else's faith unless anyone attacks them first. In fact, 2 of the world's greatest Religions, viz, Buddhism and Jainism have been born and bred in the land of Bharatvarsh under the very eyes of Vedic Dharma. With the onset of Advaita, Vedic principles and practices prevailed over Buddhism. But the point here is, that there never was the concept of attacking any faith through gross acts such as conversions or mocking depictions in art forms. "Conversion" is not a Vedic concept. However, attacks on Hinduism and the Hindu community in the recent times, by Christian evangelicals primarily in the form of forced or traded Conversions with tribal / poor communities, indulgance in statewide or regional or Caste politics, media etc have led a few Hindus who are concerned about this ageold tradition to assume the role of fanatics. There is a growing objectification of Hindu deities considering them to be inanimate, lifeless objects for art or design, boosted by the misuse of laws that give an individual absolute freedom of expression. Can you mention any other alternative that the Hindus have apart from being more assertive and aggressive ?

Two of the most common examples quoted by several people are, the Shiva Linga and Khajuraho sculptures. Shiva is often misquoted as the God of destruction! Shiva is the deity of dissolution and not destruction. There is a difference between destruction and dissolution. Destruction is complete annihilation whereas dissolution is blending into one another. Just as sugar dissolves into water and becomes one with water, similarly the prakriti, which according to the Shaiva and Shakta schools, is called Shakti, blends into the purusha (Shiva) resulting in a non-dual state of union called Advaita. Shiva Linga as supposed by many Hindus is not the depiction of male and female organs but a symbol of the flame that arises vertically upward during SomaYaga. This can be inferred from the following :

1. In the Shiva Maha Purana, Shiva is said to have manifested before Brahma and Vishnu in the form of a huge flame the length of which both Brahma and Vishnu could not measure.
2. In the Shiva Kavach and several other shlokas on Shiva, he has been mentioned as "JvalJvalaMalinaha" meaning "surrounded with garland of flames". This is the description of the flames which would rise upon offering of the Soma oblation in the Vedic sacrificial altar causing the main sacrificial fire to rise upwards surrounded by several smaller Jvalas or flames.
3. The 12 important lingas are also called as "Jyotirlingas", Jyoti meaning light or a pleasant flame.
4. Etymology of the word "Linga" : Li laya(Dissolution) + ga gama(attain) = Lingam. (Attaining dissolution). Linga also has general meanings such a mark or a distinguishing sign in Sanskrit. Linga denotes that ("Flame" called Shiva) into which the entire cosmos dissolves! This is consistent with the dialogues between Shiva , Brahma and Vishnu in the Shiv Maha Purana in which Shiva says I am that into which the entire cosmos enters into at the time of dissolution and reemanates at the time of creation.
5. The linga may stand on its own without any pedestal. For example natural Shiva Lingas like the one at Amarnath, or mount Kailash considered to be a natural linga. Lord Rama is said to have quickly made a linga out of Sand at Rameshwaram to worship Shiva. Another example is that of the Banalingas. All such lingas stand purely without pedestals. Where then is the question of yoni or Vagina and copulation?
6. If the Shiva linga is considered as a male phallus, the appearance of the Shiva linga is more like a phallus coming out of a vagina rather than penetration. The uniformly hemispherical cylindrical shape of the Linga resembles more like a flame rather than the shape of a male sex organ which increases in width towards the tip.

Thus the Shiva Linga is more of a mark of a flame, a symbol of God rather than that of reproductive organs. Sacrificial altars are not easy to create in hostile lands such a mountain peaks, Windy regions and dense forests or places far away from towns and cities. In such places, instead of actual sacrificial altars, Shiva Linga or the Symbol of flame (Shiva) is an easy way out.

The next most common example of nudity quoted with regard to Hinduism is Khajuraho. There are approximately 10% of the total sculptures in Khajuraho depicting sexual postures. Khajurahu was under Chola rule for quite some time, and the Cholas were influenced by the Tantric philosophy. For those who dont know tantra, there are two basic approaches to spirituality in Hinduism. The first one is of course the Vedic one. The Vedic approach is also called the "Nigama" which means "going away". The Vedas while describing Brahman quote "Neti Neti" (Not this, Not this) as if going away from this phenomenal world. For example, The upanishads ask What is Brahman? It is not the body, or sense organs or 5 pranas, nor is it the subtle mind and intellect. This approach of realising Brahman is called the Vedic approach.

The tantric approach is called "Agama" meaning "direct arrival". The Tantrics consider the union of Shiva-Shakti as the material and efficient cause of the phenomenal universe. Within the Tantrics , there are basically two schools of thought, the first one is Shaivism and the second one Shaktism. The Shaiva school considers that Shiva is Supreme Conciousness the efficient cause while Shakti is the material cause. On the other hand, the Shakta school considers Shakti as the efficient cause and Shiva as the material cause deeming Shiva to be merely inert like a corpse into which Goddess Shakti merges to activate and create the whole cosmos. The images of Goddess Mahakali symbolising the Primal Energy or Shakti stepping upon Shiva's chest belong to this school of thought alone. Thus as Goddess Shakti is the main principle behind the efficiency of the phenomenal world, the Shakta school considers daily human activities, chores and duties including activities involving sensory pleasures as aspects of the Goddess and a means to attain the Goddess. This is in striking contrast to the vedic approach which denies any association with objects of sensory pleasures. The Temples of Khajuraho seem to be influenced by the Shakta school of Tantric philosophy and aptly demonstrate this philosophy on the temples walls and by means of sculptures. The sculptures of Khajuraho demonstrate the daily life of people of Chola kingdom of those days. Thus, we have musicians playing music, warriors preparing for war, ladies applying makeup, farmers ploughing the fields and many other aspects of day to day life of the people of those days, all sculpted skillfully on the outer walls of the temples surrounding the temple and idols of Deities. Inside the temples are the beautiful majestic idols of Goddess Bhuvaneshwari, Shiva, Vishnu etc. What this symbolically demonstrates is the Shakta principle that God should be at the centre of all our daily activities or that God is not different from our day to day world and all these activities if done with proper Bhav can lead us to realisation of Goddess Shakti or primal energy. What must be noted is that the idols of Goddess Shakti, Shiva, Vishnu etc are fully clothed and in accordance with karmic norms. Right from Kashmir to Kanyakumari, in no place in the land of Bharat are there any naked idols of deities. Also, what you must understand is that the Shakta school of tantra has become almost extinct and what prevails today in the modern land of Bharat is the Vedic school of thought. It is thus logical to assume that the pro-vedic devout Hindu society of modern times does not approve of any such naked depiction of Deities. What is unfortunately done several times though is that Khajuraho sculptures are projected in a way that causes the whole of Hinduism to be mispresented as promoting sex and sensory pleasures.

Know for sure that as per the Vedic philosophy, showing any human being (let alone the Deities) unclothed is considered indecent and a sign of lack of civilization or culture. Not just women but also houeholder men are expected to dress decently and have a code of conduct.

Knowing the above,will dispel any myths that may arise due your portrayal of Goddess Kali.

With Regards,

Advaita Vedanta.
Glory to Adi Shankara.

Hello Nina

came across your work a few years ago. My daughters, husband and I watched the film and find your artistic interpretation of Hindu dieties radical and interesting.

I was born a Hindu, live in UK married to an Englishman and can understand your creative interpretation within your cultural and social context. It is freedom of an artist to express and as far as I can see, there is nothing offensive in your depiction nor "exotic". It is your interpretation. My belief and understanding of Hinduism and what it represents is not so frivaolous and shallow that artistic interpretations can cause offense to values that are so profound. Please do understand that there are liberal Hindus who can see beyond "dogma" .

shuba@tiffinroom.com

"How you dare to show such holy personality in such a shameful manner....why didn't you make a same animations film on muslim GOD or christen GOD...and then see, how they react.

I suggest you do this as well. I mean, lord knows there's enough stuff in the bible/koran that people don't like to talk about - Imagine the story of Sodom & Gomorrah from the position of Lot's wife, or all the bloody battles between Israelites and neighboring tribes. You could draw a lifetime of material from offending fundamentalists with their own texts. It'll be a blast!

Seriously, though, the Sitayana is gorgeous, and those who find it offensive must be blind.

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This post has been removed by the author.

NIna you say you have a right to do this as an artist.... right as an artist????

your RIGHT to do this is no greater than the RIGHT of a hobo or that of a one track minded pervert. You can do this because there is no law preventing you, only decency and compassion.

And for those Hindus who feel pride by this depiction of Hindu scriptures must not have any confidence in their Hindu heritage that they feel happy to have someone like Nina to ascertain that their religion is worth enough to be denigrated.

Hindus welcome any kind of intellectual discussion on our scriptures and religion just not pop and grotesque representation of our deities

Any true devotee of Rama and Sita would find the paintings as offensive. In fact any twisted representation of Ramayana would be offensive to a devout Hindu. This is a purposeful attack on Hinduism. The aim is to twist Ramayana and reduce it spiritual importance. This wont be tolerated at an intellectual level. frustrated bitches like Nina Paley are always on the look out for some cheap publicity. There are often better ways for cheap publicity. Nina can get into the porn industry and release some of her fuck movies and she'll be famous in an instant. Her new nick, Vagina Paley! Ho Hum! Hickory Dickory Dock ... ! There are countless frustrated souls out there who would love to look at her frustrated dry pussy. There is one more reason why Nina is a bitch. Look at the deleted posts above! Why does she have to delete any posts ? If she would have stood in front of me for a second, I would have shown her ass what it is like to get slandered and in the process, I would have made myself and her famous. If slandering and bullshitting anyone's faith and devotion is her bloody inherited birthright, is it not our birthright to abuse the bitch called Nina and what if we want to exercize it on this blog ? I know the hypocritical bitch won't allow that!

Nina, I would like to abuse you as I have the right to freedom of speech. You are a bitch, a Frustrated Ass, a twatless cunt, a Lipless Sucker! Why dont you come over here and bend over so that I can show you how to be really creative for thats what you seem to be interested in ! I'll show you how virgin May became pregnant! Come babe! Come!

Har har, Rofl Rofl! Vagina Paley. Now that seems to be interesting. A Dry painful Vagina. A Fingering Pain in the butt. Nina, how did a large part of the world end up following a bastard like Jesus Christ whose mother was a virgin ? (What the heck?) By the way, I have a creative suggestion. "Mariana"(Marijuana) would be a series depicting Mother Mary who did not know who the father of Jesus was! She probably did God by pushing up his purple robes and taking his D*** to conceive Jesus! That is why Jesus is the son of God. Which explains why there are so many teenage abortions in US. Alas not everyone can become Sons of Gods. There are many eligible sons of God out there!

Know what, Nina has proved that modesty, politeness, mildness, requests wont work with the bloody Americans. They deserve more Osamas who can thrust their missiles into their asses.

The flames on this thread brought to mind a passage from Gene Wolfe's book, THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER:

"One can't found a novel theology on Nothing, and nothing is so secure a foundation as a contradiction. Look at the great successes of the past -- they say their deities are the masters of all the universes, and yet that they require grandmothers to defend them, as if they were children frightened by poultry."

And poultry can at least peck you or give you salmonella. Whoever heard of children frightened by cartoons?

While I'm here, this passage from the Ramayana should interest "hahaha," who seems to find it terribly profane to suggest that babies come from fucking:

"'Siva agreed to contain his seed within himself. "Uma and I will hold back our reproductive fluids so that the world can live in peace. But who will bear the semen that has already been released from my body?" The gods replied that the earth would bear the seed that had been released. Siva let his semen fall and it covered all the mountains and the forests of the earth.

"'The gods urged Agni, the eater of oblations, and Vayu: "Quickly, enter Siva's semen!" They did so and a huge mountain of semen was formed. It was covered with a forest of reeds which shone with the splendour of the sun. The effulgent Kartikeya was later born from this blazing splendour...'"

Keep up the good work!